This is a transcription of the co-creation episode of the Sensational Shorts podcast, produced and recorded by Dr Charlotte Slark featuring a special guest host, Amy Thraves-Connor
Audio
Speaker vocal descriptions
Amy speaks with a pretty nondescript, Midlands accent. Being from Leicester the accent is pretty unrecognisable to anyone other than other people from Leicester. She often runs away with sentences that are far too long really, and can put emphasis on different parts of the sentence.
Charlotte speaks animatedly and talks faster when she’s excited. She has a southern English accent, which a local person would identify as a somewhat polished combination of Slough and Staines upon Thames (think quite hard consonants!). It’s the accent of someone from a working-class background who has spent a lot of time having to fit-in in middle class spaces.
Notes on transcript style
- Punctuation is used to indicate the way the content was delivered, rather than necessarily being how should be correct grammatically. Please try and read it with these pauses (or not as the case may be) in mind.
- Words in square brackets and in italics, [like this], indicate delivery types (e.g. softly; animated), audible occurrences (e.g. laugh; sigh), and sound differences (e.g. quieter delivery) in the recording.
- Ellipses (like… this) indicate a short break between sentences.
- Italicised words (like this) indicate emphasis placed more heavily on the words as they are delivered.
- Quotation marks (“like this”) mean we are suggesting this is something someone might have said (e.g., she said, “oh, that was weird”, and I could see why)
- Whereas quotation marks (‘like this’) mean we are emphasising it as a useful term (e.g. ‘the fourth wall’).
Transcript
[The podcast starts with The Sensational Museum audio logo: A conspiratorial female voice says ‘The Sensational Museum’. Lower in volume, almost distant, people are chattering excitedly in a large, echoey space. A warm, major chord chimes and fades out]
Charlotte 00:00
Welcome to this Sensational Shorts podcast on co-creation. I’m Charlotte Slark, and I’m here with our special guest host Amy Thraves-Connor, who is a former Curating for Change Fellow.
Amy 00:09
Hi, I’m Amy, and just here to talk about co-curation with Charlotte today.
Charlotte 00:15
Amazing. So we always start with visual descriptions. Amy, did you want to go first?
Amy 00:19
Yeah, sure. So I’m a white woman in her mid 20s, and I’ve got short, messy, black and green hair. I’m wearing black circular glasses, and I’m wearing a black and white striped top [quieter as if as an aside] which is very similar to what Charlotte’ wearing actually.
Charlotte 00:34
I was gonna say, I thought we’ve coordinated nicely today. So I’m a white woman in my 30s. I have blonde, curly hair that’s tied up into a bun, blue round plastic glasses and a blue and red stripey top. So, to get started, Amy, why don’t you tell us why co creation is essential for museums?
Amy 00:52
[Slowly and considered] I would say that co creation is, important because, it gives you a wider… perspective [Charlotte Mmhmms in the background]. It gives you a lot more authentic ideas for your museum or for your exhibition or whatever you’re putting on. And it also allows the community to feel as if their, voices are being heard and their, their stories and their backgrounds and their objects maybe are being represented in the way that is most accurate for them.
Charlotte 01:32
Amazing. And, you had a really wide range of people in your co creation Group. Why was that so important?
Amy 01:40
I think because, disability is such a broad topic. I think that does link back to the importance of co-creation. Is that if you are maybe making an exhibition about a subject, or if you’re just making an exhibition in general, right, people aren’t a hive mind. Like not everyone thinks the same way or believes the same thing or has the same experiences. So, to be able to get a broader range of opinions and thoughts, is just really interesting, because obviously I, I have a mobility disability, so part time wheelchair user, I walk with sticks and I have difficulty sort of with my mobility, but I don’t know what it’s like to be d/Deaf or I don’t know what it’s like to live with a visual impairment or, some kind of neurodivergence or something like this. I, you know, I don’t have that lived experience so, I think it is really important to have that wide variety, because you don’t all think the same thing. And also no two people think the same thing, regardless of whether they have a disability or whether they’re part of another minority group or, whether they’re this or, whether they’re that, like everyone still has an individual experience. So actually, you get a richer tapestry of ideas, the more different people that you speak to, and I think also having people that maybe have conflicting experiences or conflicting opinions can actually, foster an environment where you pull out ideas and you develop things that might not have come about if you didn’t have those alternative opinions.
Charlotte 03:22
How did you help the co-producers to understand that their views and experiences were going to be taken seriously by the museum?
Amy 03:29
Well, I think paying them for their time was a big deal, because it felt as though… they then believed that actually we were serious about it. We valued their time and their input so, I’ve always said that it’s important that we value lived experience as a form of interpretive research or a form of, method of interpretation. So we made sure that we paid them for their time in whatever way was best for them. So whether that was like cash payment or with vouchers or something else, because otherwise it becomes kind of… maybe a bit exploitative. I think giving them their autonomy and not being kind of dictatorial in like what I wanted off of them, gave them a sense of freedom and actually thought that I trusted them. [small pause] So I think just fostering a relationship over time as well. So we had initial zoom meetings with all the people who were, interested in joining us, to sort of explain what the project was, and how would we conduct it and stuff. So I think putting time and effort into creating a relationship with the individuals as well really helped. [Changing tone] And we did have one person who, at the end of it, gave feedback that they did feel like it was tokenistic. And that they felt that their, voice was curtailed, in some ways, which you know you’re going to get that. And I think learning from that or recognizing why they said that is really important. You know, I’m not going to say any more about that, but I did have that experience, and I was quite upset by it because I did feel like I tried to be as inclusive as possible, but, I did give them some guidelines, and I think that maybe… the way that they communicated was slightly different to the way that I communicate. So learning, that’s a point of learning for me. They were able to create their own and write their own labels for a chosen object. We gave things like word limits for captions, and one person… didn’t necessarily stick to that word count, and then when it came to the final thing, were quite upset that we’d had to edit it. Even though we’d sent them the edited version, we didn’t print anything without their permission, we didn’t change anything without them saying “yes”. But it did feel like, it was a little bit difficult to get to that point [Charlotte hmms in agreement in the background]. So I think it’s just to be aware that people communicate in different ways, and people have different understandings of… ways of doing things, and like not everyone obviously has worked in a museum before, and not everyone has an understanding of, like, museum processes and editing and all that kind of thing. So I think, actually, even though I thought I was being really clear, actually maybe even being even clearer, or being literally explaining every step that you’re doing, and why you’re doing it, is really important to give them an understanding of what’s going on and how their words and how their story and how their ideas and context and, is being used.
Charlotte 06:48
I think that’s a really good point. It’s about explaining to people why there are certain rules. Because, even if you’re doing something really, revolutionary or innovative, there are certain rules that you will have to stick to in a museum, whether that’s because of, you know, space or conservation issues or all kinds of things. And sometimes that will conflict with what a co-creator wants. But I think it’s about explaining why that’s the case [Amy hums in agreement]. Sometimes there’s going to be certain things that are, never going to be resolvable in that same way?
Amy 07:25
Yeah, I think it’s also based on, like, people’s past experiences as well. So this particular person… maybe had a different level of expectation to some of the other participants. So, I think being really clear from the start about what the participants are going to be involved in and what they’re not going to be involved in as well, [slowing down] is key to making them understand where their voice comes in, but also being clear about like, what our role is as well and how we’re working. So I think one of the key things that I learned is to be really clear about setting out your stall from the start. And also, I found that it took a lot longer to recruit people for the co-production group than I expected. So, I would recommend starting that really, really early on in whatever project you’re wanting to co-create in, because it definitely took a lot longer than I thought. It was more difficult to recruit people than maybe I’d expected. I found that, I put out a public call, like a public call out on social media and stuff, but I actually found that the better way of recruiting people was to reach out to organisations and to utilize, like, pre-existing networks and things. So yeah, that would be a tip as well. Also, [changing tone to indicate that this is something that was in hindsight obvious but that everything is clearer with hindsight] don’t really do it over summer, because a lot of people go on holiday over summer [Charlotte laughs in the background], and it’s difficult to coordinate people’s time off, and availability.
Charlotte 08:55
That’s very good advice. Is there any other advice you’d give museums who are starting on their co-creation journey?
Amy 09:01
Don’t be afraid to do it. Like I was really nervous. And I was like, “oh my god, I’m gonna say the wrong thing. I’m gonna put my foot in it, or I’m gonna be offensive in some way or, you know, I don’t know how to talk to people” but actually, [almost conspiratorially] they’re just people. And, they’re probably nervous too [small chuckle from Amy and a quiet “yea” from Charlotte] about coming to the museum, or working with the museum, or saying the wrong thing, or saying the right thing to think actually, just do it, and it’s actually a lot more enjoyable than you think.
Charlotte 09:29
Amazing. Thank you so much Amy for joining us on the podcast.
Amy 09:33
I’m happy to be here.
Charlotte 09:34
Thank you. I’ve been Charlotte Slark, and you’ve been listening to this Sensational Shorts episode on co-creation.
[The podcast ends with The Sensational Museum audio logo. A conspiratorial female voice says ‘The Sensational Museum’. Lower in volume, almost distant, people are chattering excitedly in a large, echoey space. A warm, major chord chimes and fades out]